Curse

around · Jun 16, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Actually, if something is ridiculously hard, then it is in ANet's interests to tone it down. Take Razah for example. Nigh-on impossible to get before Anet reduced his requirements.

However, the question should be: 'Was it too hard to get FoW and all that BEFORE PvE skills?'.

I believe yes, but that's only because FoW is meant to be vanity armour. It doesn't carry any extra bonuses (beyond +1 to epeen)-the sole purpose is as a symbol that you spend way too much time on GW.

Should it have been made easier to get? No, because that would have devalued the prestige value of it. If everyone can get FoW with enough 121212312121231231211121, then it quickly loses its status.

1 up and 2 down · Jun 16, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...

I'll ask again. You couldn't do this before PvE skills?

I find it funny that Thizzle keeps avoiding your question.

Yichi · Jun 16, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 up and 2 down

I find it funny that Thizzle keeps avoiding your question.

Anyone that doesn't have a base to their argument and just wants to ramble on about something to feel important will avoid it or any other question,fact,statement that is brought up that has meaning behind it.

Just like the DL,DU argument.

Silent Coyote · Jun 16, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I think it's pretty clear that Thizzle isn't trying to argue a valid point and is just trolling, trying to stir up a reaction.

imnotyourmother · Jun 16, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

My two cents.

There has been considerable changes to the game with every additional story line that has come. So much so that I am now dedicated to playing in Presearing. The only part of the game that remains mostly unchanged other than the charr bags and the charr kits.

Interestingly enough when people brought things into pre they went after them and closed the xploits and forced players to go to post or to give up their goods to preserve the integrity of Pre.

I find this ironic.

Hyper Cutter · Jun 16, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

My problem is "Hi, now we blow your face up with the same skills you have only better, faster, harder, stronger, and easier than you can ever dream."

aka every caster boss since Factions (notably the Naga boss Tin Dao Kaineng, one of the first nasty bosses Factions characters ever encounter)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Maybe I can jog your memory: Enraged, Banish Enchantment, Consume Torment, Demonic Miasma, Wurm Bile, Pyroclastic Shot, Enchantment Collapse, Juggernaut Toss, Ceiling Collapse, Carrier Defense, ...

Cathetdral Collapse is an environmental effect, not a monster skill (and is still unfair in that monsters never get affected by those). God, do I hate Pyroclastic Shot, though (skills that say "do 80 damage" should not near-wipe a party in one hit. Of course, Cyndr's [flame burst] is just as bad...)

Also Twisting Jaws, if only because the stuff that uses it tends to travel in packs of 2-6...

DivineEnvoy · Jun 16, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

First of all, to the original poster, I'm going to ask one simple question: why can't you just PvP? Skills are balanced there, and there will not be any PvE-only skills or items. Also, teams will also be balanced. In addition to these, I bet the human players will act much more smarter than any AI's Anet is willing to make for Guild Wars.

Now then, as for the existing PvE-only skills and items, they do make the game easier. That's a fact. However, has any of you, people who are against these objects, played the game from the very beginning or at least before the mission outposts are deserted? Truth is, when we first played the game, whether it was when the first Guild Wars was first released or when we first completed a mission with a party of humans, we ask questions and learn game mechanics back then, and it was fun. Question is, is it still the case right now? Mission outposts are deserted. Hardly anyone is willing to do Hard Mode missions or dungeons. Why? Because they all are not good enough or deserving to do these tasks? That's a definitely no. People nowadays just don't want to do anything, whether it is the pain of failing a mission or disliking the game because not many people are around anymore. These PvE items are just a simple solution for that.

Also, how many of you have played the game for three years now? What about two years? Do you realize how much time you have spent into this game? With these countless hours spent into the game, I bet most of you have already developed enough knowledge to get through various areas. With that in mind, along with the addition of PvE-only skills and items, in your perspective, don't you think you can use it more wisely and efficient than other players? Situation is, the real issue we may have here may have been exaggerated or even converted into a different form to the extend that there's really no available solutions for it. Is that what any of us really wants?

Another point I would like to make is that after playing this game for so long, especially knowing no further updates will be made, aren't any of us bored with this game? This isn't the issue about other people going through areas easily. This isn't the issue about other people getting their shiny gloves or shields. In brief, we don't care about other people to begin with. It has and always has been about ourselves - how much we enjoy the game. If what others do in their instances would have really impact any of us, then I bet a lot of people would've cried the moment when a new FoW armor is crafted. That isn't the case though. In short, whether we are just bored with the game, or we have played it too much, or simply we moved onto another game, it's not a big deal. It's never about Ursan or consumable sets; you wish to play the old days when thousands of players were active in playing. Sadly, that isn't going to happen; not because the game is being dumped down or what not, they simply got bored before any of us did, and they moved on. It's just that simple.

Now then, if we subtract all these illusions in front of us, then we should see the real issue here: Anet is trying to make Guild Wars playable even in five years from now. Face it, none of us (in the general sense that is) will be generous or bored enough to come back to Guild Wars then and offer new players the help they needed. The only one is left would be Anet. I guess the solution we have so far is not perfect or perhaps ideal, but what are the responses so far? We get some guy every week coming on Wiki or this forum telling us that developers don't know what they are doing or telling us how Guild Wars is going to die. Hardly anything that's productive is ever being mentioned.

Yichi · Jun 16, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

First of all, to the original poster, I'm going to ask one simple question: why can't you just PvP? Skills are balanced there...

While yes I agree that you're trying to make a point, your entire argument kind of fell apart with this sentence and a half...

Avarre does PvP. He said so in his original post. But thats not the issue. The support for PvP was given up for the majority of support given towards PvE, and no skills aren't balanced in PvP. Not to sound blunt here, but its apparent that you really have no idea what's going on in the PvP world to even make this statement.

The issue isn't whether or not someone should PvP to get away from the PvE skills or consumables, etc. The issue is that the "Toning" down of the game, grind, PvE only skills, etc. have all detracted ANET of the game they origionally designed, implemented, and marketed as completely different than the game we have now.

DivineEnvoy · Jun 16, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Avarre does PvP. He said so in his original post. But thats not the issue. The support for PvP was given up for the majority of support given towards PvE, and no skills aren't balanced in PvP. Not to sound blunt here, but its apparent that you really have no idea what's going on in the PvP world to even make this statement.

May I ask where are you getting the fact that PvP was given up for the majority of support given towards PvE? In related to this, I actually have seen that Anet is giving more support toward PvP balance from here.

"Update: We won't be publishing the Hall of Monuments Dev Update until next week, because we have a skill balance Dev Update planned instead, which was deemed as a higher priority. --Regina Buenaobra 19:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)"

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...I_seem_rude.29

Perhaps sklills may have not been perfectly balanced; after all, developers are only humans, and they can only do it so much. From time to time, I still see balance updates for PvP. There's also a problem with lack of programmers in the current game. Perhaps that's the case, but it has nothing to do with my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

The issue isn't whether or not someone should PvP to get away from the PvE skills or consumables, etc. The issue is that the "Toning" down of the game, grind, PvE only skills, etc. have all detracted ANET of the game they origionally designed, implemented, and marketed as completely different than the game we have now.

From my perspective, he wanted to turn PvE into a place with balanced teams, balanced skills and efficient AI's, which is a complete clone of PvP; it's just that humans won't be the primary player there, AI's will. So I just asked that why can't he just PvP.

As for the PvE portion of the topic, read the rest of my post please.

Snow Bunny · Jun 16, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

....

GUILD WARS

NOT URSAN VERSUS DUNCAN THE BLACK WARZ

GUILD WARS. LIKE MY GUILD SMASHING IN THE FACES OF YOUR GUILD.

NOT URSAN VERSUS DUNCAN THE BLACK WARS. NOT BEARS SMASHING IN THE FACES OF A DWARF WARS.

fenix · Jun 16, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

....

GUILD WARS

NOT URSAN VERSUS DUNCAN THE BLACK WARZ

GUILD WARS. LIKE MY GUILD SMASHING IN THE FACES OF YOUR GUILD.

NOT URSAN VERSUS DUNCAN THE BLACK WARS. NOT BEARS SMASHING IN THE FACES OF A DWARF WARS.

This man speaks the truth.

Guild Wars = Wars between Guilds. Like, oh I dunno, GvG?

Quote:

May I ask where are you getting the fact that PvP was given up for the majority of support given towards PvE? In related to this, I actually have seen that Anet is giving more support toward PvP balance from here.

One again, you miss the mark entirely. Just because there are balance updates, doesn't mean the game is balanced. Go play some PvP, or hell, even OBSERVE some PvP and you won't look so uneducated in the matter.

Tyla · Jun 16, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

May I ask where are you getting the fact that PvP was given up for the majority of support given towards PvE? In related to this, I actually have seen that Anet is giving more support toward PvP balance from here.

In that case why are the skill balances so sloppy?

Dervsmite only got a soft nerf. It's still viable, you still get a 3 D/E frontline with a Me/Mo buffing them. Wounding Strike is still broken and Attacker's Insight turns energy management problems into "Who needs energy?".

Mac Sidewinder · Jun 16, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

You will always have people with different opinions on balance after a skill update. Some will say its balanced now where as others will say this skill or that skill is way op and so on. This is not the issue at hand. I understand exactly where the op is coming from. He is concerned at the direction that Anet seems to be leaning, and how this might be carried over into GW2.

I use to play DAOC for a long time and they pulled the same things that Anet is doing right now. Making the game way too easy with very over powered skills and devaluing any accomplishments along the way. Alot of the original players got disgusted over the changes and left the game. There was no reason that any of the pve only skills or consumables needed to be in the game. Even with the content of the dungeons of EOTN. So what if you party wiped once in a while, accumulated enough dp that you got kicked out of places? Thats the learning process. All Anet did was remove that learning process and place a Staples "easy" button in the hands of the player. Players may like it right now but imo they are going to get bored more quickly than they would have if Anet would have simply balanced the areas and skills properly.

As far as the titles are concerned they would have been fine if Anet wouldn't have tied skill effectiveness to the titles. Imo all this did was create a time>skill condition, whereas the player needed to grind in order to max out the skill. If titles were left as vanity items (not affecting pve play) then only the people who desired such could have grinded for them. Anet decided that we will let you be a more effective pve player by requiring you to grind your skills over someone else who simply has the basic skill. Thus time>skill.

All in all I would like to see Anet even attempt to answer some of his questions/concerns. It would be very enlightening to see what direction they seem to be leaning towards.

Bekkr · Jun 16, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I think most all game devs (including Anet, obviously) are realizing the sad, sad truth: easy mode games simply sell more units.

DreamWind · Jun 17, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Well DreamWind it's because DEPTH has an INDIVIDUAL perception as well.

No it doesn't. The reduction of depth in the game either happened or it didn't. There is no perception involved. Just because people perceive something does not mean it is true. The reality is that there have been a ton of changes to the game that have reduced the depth. It has nothing to do with people "getting more experienced". The game is just bloody easier now, and anybody who can't see that either haven't been playing this game for the past 3 years or are clearly showing bad game judgment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manitoba1073

No it wasnt. As Ive said noone is holding a gun to your heads. Well if they arer then you have other serious problems. You have a choice and option to use or not use it. Yes the truth always ruins threads around here.

DLDU has been smashed over and over again. Anybody still using that argument is frankly laughed at by the well informed. If you don't use something, the problem is still there. Simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

First of all, to the original poster, I'm going to ask one simple question: why can't you just PvP? Skills are balanced there, and there will not be any PvE-only skills or items.

Because PvP is also suffering from the same problems that PvE is suffering from...balance and depth gone down the toilet. The splitting of skills has not helped PvP or PvE whatsoever. This is not a PvP vs PvE problem. It is a GUILD WARS problem.

Mac Sidewinder · Jun 17, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Since I don't pvp, please tell me how this has suffered. I can see in pve with pve skills and consumables, titles etc how it has affected Gw. But how has pvp been changed by these? Just asking.

manitoba1073 · Jun 17, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

DLDU has been smashed over and over again. Anybody still using that argument is frankly laughed at by the well informed. If you don't use something, the problem is still there. Simple.

Only informed one laughing is me. You and others are the ones that dont get it. I never said the skills would magically disappear if you didnt use them. However you have the choice to use them or not to it really is that simple. Hell for all the QQ over it by the ppl in this thread you'd think you guys would team up if you were having such supposed problems finding non-UB teams. I have no problems finding non-UB pugs whats so ever. The problem isnt the skills the problems is the players themselves. You have the choice, how about you know actually using that choice instead of trying to force others to play your way.

DreamWind · Jun 17, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Only informed one laughing is me. You and others are the ones that dont get it. I never said the skills would magically disappear if you didnt use them. However you have the choice to use them or not to it really is that simple.

The problem isnt the skills the problems is the players themselves. You have the choice, how about you know actually using that choice instead of trying to force others to play your way.

You aren't getting it. Saying "don't like it don't use it" is absolutely 100% ignoring the problems stated in this thread. You might as well not even post it as it adds nothing to the discussion. You are either trying to ignore the problem or completely not realizing that there is a problem. Anybody using "DLDU" is the same way. I think others will agree with me.

manitoba1073 · Jun 17, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You aren't getting it. Saying "don't like it don't use it" is absolutely 100% ignoring the problems stated in this thread. You might as well not even post it as it adds nothing to the discussion. You are either trying to ignore the problem or completely not realizing that there is a problem. Anybody using "DLDU" is the same way. I think others will agree with me.

Im not ignoring the problem I stated the problems long ago. I said what would happen then that has happened for more than 3 years. Just because you and some others dont like to hear the actual truth doesnt mean I havent added to this thread. The problem is with people trying to force there way on others not with the dam skills. If you truelly think they are that imbalanced for you it is that simple to not use them since they are really PvE skills. Not to mention there supposedly is so many here and other forums that ppl claim dont like them that there should be plenty of ppl to find to put non using pugs together.

Is it really that bad for you that others might be enjoying the game more in more ways than you?

Because the way they play has no effect on you at all.

The problems I said would arise but the minority didnt want to see it then. Well I say they asked for the crow then now let them eat it. So go enjoy your monkey see monkey do game as it is make the choice yourself instead of trying to force others into your playstyle.

Abedeus · Jun 17, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Only informed one laughing is me. You and others are the ones that dont get it. I never said the skills would magically disappear if you didnt use them. However you have the choice to use them or not to it really is that simple. Hell for all the QQ over it by the ppl in this thread you'd think you guys would team up if you were having such supposed problems finding non-UB teams. I have no problems finding non-UB pugs whats so ever. The problem isnt the skills the problems is the players themselves. You have the choice, how about you know actually using that choice instead of trying to force others to play your way.

I dare you, go to ToA and try to find a balanced team in less than 30 minutes, and that it WILL enter UW/FoW and try to kill something. Impossible. We try to play our way, we are forced to play with h/h. Because guildies even if exist (hai), can't be wherever and whenever WE would like. Sometimes they go to Deep/Urgoz/DoA, while I want to play UW/FoW. And I'm stuck with trying to h/h fow or ursaning UW/FoW. That's forcing me to change my playstyle.